Andre Villas-Boas hits the nail on the head
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 20, 2012 12:31 AM GMT
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AVB may have only been in England for a short time now, but he already shares one of my biggest bugaboos with the English system of developing young talent. The current structure of the reserve league leaves an awful lot to be desired as the gap between that level of competition and the Premier League is absolutely enormous. When asked about the youth setup in England he responded with the following:
The youth development system in England is not right in my opinion. The reserve league is not competitive enough, the youth levels are not competitive enough.
We know the reserve league will be completely restructured next season with the EPPP (more on that in a few weeks), but to date it's pretty unclear exactly how the changes will make it more competitive. He touches on what's proven to be a far more effective model overseas though, the "B team":
What happens at Barcelona is a good model in terms of competition, they promote talent. If your B team plays in the Championship where they are fourth or sixth and threatening, you call them up. There is an ease to call them up, and it could be a great benefit because you don't have to work with a 26 man squad but a 19 man squad and just recall the best young guys with constant activity. If Ryan and Josh could make the jump from the Championship to the Premiership every week their involvement would be much better.
I find it hard to believe that we'd add a "B team" format in England...there is far too much rich tradition in the lower levels of league football for me to believe the FA would make such a drastic alteration. AVB brings up some sensational points though, and I'll take a deeper look at them after the jump.
There are certainly positives and negatives to a "B team" system, but it is one that I've been overwhelmingly in favor of for a very long time. I'm going to list some of the pros and cons of this potential system using bullet point form. First up are the pros:
- A "B team" would effectively eliminate the need for the loan system in most cases. A top team with loads of near ready talent would likely have their youngsters competing at a very high level already. Bertrand, Lukaku, McEachran, Kakuta, and PvA would all be getting regular playing time against pretty high quality opposition this way despite not seeing much first team action. Thibaut Courtois would likely have already made his debut this way as well when Cech was out injured early on.
- More players would qualify as club trained by UEFA standards. When kids get sent out on loan to develop it causes most of these players to be "association trained" as opposed to club trained if they weren't schoolboys at the club. Not a huge deal, but every roster spot helps.
- There would be more chances to integrate the youngsters. There were plenty of matches thus far where Bruma and Courtois would certainly have had opportunities to make a name for themselves at Chelsea had we been able to place the kids on our "B team". Several others would have likely been given the call when the situation warranted as well.
- We wouldn't have to worry about the rule limiting a player to 2 clubs on the season. Buying a fringe of the first team young player in January wouldn't lead to such a tough loan decision immediately as we'd have an acceptable short term playing solution at hand.
- It would let the club better evaluate it's young talent. If the kids are training full time in Cobham, our coaching and medical staffs will have a better opportunity to evaluate them. More information is always a good thing and helps us to avoid missing on guys like Tore and Sinclair.
- A smoother transition to the Premier League with Chelsea. If they are playing for a Championship side that runs effectively the same system they will be better suited to the transition at the Premier League level. This also probably translates to easier transitions to every level as the kids won't be dealing with totally new coaching staffs, teammates, and systems as they progress.
- Here's the biggie...potentially more money to spend on world class players. If we hadn't had to send Bruma and Kalas out on loan for their development there is a good chance we wouldn't have had to make that Cahill purchase due to already having cover. You could probably find plenty of other instances where keeping your best youth around could save teams from that emergency buy for cover, and those dollars (or euros, pounds, etc.) add up. If you don't have to spend 7 million and 80k per week on Cahill that money could be utilized elsewhere.
Now we'll look at a few cons:
- Many lower division team rely on the loan system to remain competitive. Wiping that out could help widen the gap between the top teams and the rest of England.
- A "B team" would effectively mean less clubs participating in league football. While the competition might be better in the lower divisions because of it, many fans of smaller clubs would probably be upset.
- There would be even less reason than there already is for top talent to stay at smaller clubs.
- It might hurt the financial viability of many clubs at the bottom rungs of the game.
- Tradition. Part of the beauty of England is the history. This would be a pretty radical change.
I've probably done the "con" side a bit of a disservice here, but as I mentioned earlier I am very heavily in favor of exactly the system AVB just suggested. It's always nice to hear the manager echoing my random thoughts about player development. In my view it would certainly help Premier League clubs in the development of their young talent and probably pay massive dividends to the England national team because of it. I'm really looking forward to seeing what the FA has in mind for the new reserve league, but I can't imagine it will be anything quite as radically different than the current system as this. Leave your thoughts in the comments below, I imagine we'll have all sorts of different opinions on this one.
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Completely agree
It’s not even just the top clubs in Spain that have B teams. If you look at the third division (which admittedly is 80 teams in 4 groups rather than the English 20) even Getafe has a B side. So this wouldn’t be a thing just for the Top 6 to do – the Stokes and Boltons can have B teams too, which will help them rely less on transfers. With better financial management than the idiots in Spain (both on individual club level and with the shared TV revenue of the Premier League), English football could improve much more. Although it would be, by and large, at the expense of numerous smaller clubs and English football history in general.
The B team is also pretty common in Germany
Ironically enough those two countries are noted as having the best development systems in Europe
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 20, 2012 1:23 AM GMT up reply actions
Didn't just one England manager
say recently this was because the Germans just kidnap foreign kids and brainwash them? Hehehe … :D
Tor ilisar'thera'nal!
Does it have to come at the expense of the smaller teams?
Let’s say Chelsea set up an agreement with the FA and a smaller club that, for example, Brentford (in League 1) becomes Chelsea’s “B” team. They are still called Brentford and have all of their traditions, jerseys etc. Nothing there changes.
However that’s where all Chelsea’s prospects go to play and develop and they can be recalled from Brentford at any time. Chelsea is free to send other players to other clubs, but they don’t have the special agreement they have with Brentford and those players can’t be recalled. So Brentford gets access to better medical and training facilities, as well as a guaranteed pipeline to top talent prospects.
How is that not a great deal for both teams?
In that particular example Brentford would no longer really be an independent professional team
You’d just be taking the B team concept and usurping the name of a club you are basically contracting. Nothing about the history of the usurped club would really exist anymore…it would just be Chelsea B without calling it such
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 20, 2012 1:39 AM GMT up reply actions
Yes, the Brentford fans would still be upset
They would consider their club to have ‘been sold/bought’ and ‘not be Brentford’. The players wouldn’t be Brentford players, they’d be Chelsea players.
But with Brentford still technically being an independent team
UEFA rules would require the players be registered to one squad or the other. Callups outside the window could not happen.
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 20, 2012 1:46 AM GMT up reply actions
AVB didn't advocate this
he was, unlike you’d think after the idiots at the Football League made out he was “offensive” over this, pretty clear he respected the history and support of those sides in the lower leagues and said “B” teams for big sides would be by far the better option for the youth at Chelsea, Utd, Arsenal etc. Not once did he suggest taking over Brentford or any other smaller club would be a good idea. As Schmidt says, too, a feeder club is less use than a “B” team anyway but even then I cannot see a B team having made it through the league pyramid being allowed to just interchange players with their mother club in England anyway so, you know? No matter that this move would help both the quality of play in the lower leagues, mean more young players got chances in general(many of whom would then FEED those lower league sides anyway)and ther national side would benefit more than ANY single club.
Sure, taking over a club just to service another, bigger or more successful one is totally unthinkable but AVB didn’t say that at all and the fools saying he was offenasive need to read what he really said and apologise before the next time they blindly bite at Johnny Foreigner like this.
Natch, we hope the improvements for youth and reserve football coming soon make this less of an issue but, seriously, this is England and they won’t do much worth doing. Same as we aren’t even LOOKING at safe standing in grounds because we went way too far after a policing debacle in Hillsborough. Sure something needed doing but that many people being allowed into ANY area would have spelled disaster yet ourt authorities are so hamstrung by doing what looks right to them that our football itself suffers with every short sigjhted non decision they make. Everyone likes to kick out at the greedy EPL but at least they got a decent product our ruling the world.
The otherr side to this is the way I see Chelsea just maaking sure we have a team in every top league in Europe(outside Spain and italy)which we can use as a vu=irtual youth feeder club. Vitesse in Holland and jnow Den Haag. Hamburg using our players via THATY connection and whispers of deals from PSV to Portugal to ArgentinaChelsea seem to be making up, as much as they can short of a side playing the first team system with all our youth team players, for the lack of a real feeder side by having stronger and stroinger relations with clubs outside the UK and expet this to go onand on-Dijon could easily become a real Fren ch destination for plenty more than Gael if we do some of the things, I think, they mooted over the new year period in the future. They seem amazingly happy to be getting a few mire of our lot soon and ?Vitesse always take whoever we offer.
With or without the FL helping anyone Chelsea and others are already making moves to allow us a sort of “feeder network” across the EU and larger world to fill the gap for our kids and let’s also hope the one off loans succeed more from now on. Josh, mind, I can see failing whatever he does as what exactly is in it for Swansea to play him right now? Theit three in CM is doing better than OURS and wiuth the lack of form from Raul and Lamps(his desire to only score goals from midfield while giving less than he used to in other areas isn’t a good part of any plan A)you’d think getting Josh, a creativ player like we need, a game at home would be an easier task, no? If he comes in for one of their three and they lose purely because they aren’t used to him and vice versa he’ll be back out next game and unlikely to get another chance much less a run and young players, no matter how talented wil be up and down whenever and wwherever they start off. He could be brilliant but just not fit in and he’d be back broken.
I’d not have chosen the seemingly “safe” option of a manager who he knows because Rogers will throw him in too soon and risk him being alienated by the fans if he’s seen as the weak link in said game-a victim of THEIR success and taking of a kid they do not need. Bad loan in my eyes. /better off going to Villa where he’d be the only creative midfielder and at least offer a manager something newer and different but in a creative side like Swansea who also just got another creative mid of their own? Silly moave and he won’t play much unless he blows people away from the get go or injuries wreck their team.
by mastiffchild on Jan 21, 2012 12:28 AM GMT up reply actions
First team experience
is still better than a B-team league. Loan deals will still be required. Players will improve alot more in a REAL game than in a b-league where there are only 200 spectators with no atmosphere.
First team games > B-Team League / Reserve games
I think you're missing what B teams do
Barca B actually plays in the second division of Spanish football. They are not in a B team league. While they aren’t allowed to be promoted to the top flight, they are eligible to be promoted/relegated all around the lower levels. They play “real” games against real teams, not in a reserve league.
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 20, 2012 1:49 AM GMT up reply actions
Bingo, it's not some knock off league. Its the segunda division -- just like I guess the Championship.
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by Timm Higgins on Jan 20, 2012 2:12 AM GMT up reply actions
Actually, even though it's called Segunda Division
It’s the third division. The second one is called Liga adelante.
1970 - 1984 - 2010
"Vamos Fluzão, vamos ganhar
Eu sou do clube tantas vezes campeão!
Vim pra torcer, vim pra gritar
E por você a vida inteira vou cantar!"
You're wrong on that.
Just as the Primera Division is Liga BBVA due to sponsorship, the Segunda Division is officially Liga adelante
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by Kevin Kostka on Jan 20, 2012 9:32 AM GMT up reply actions
That it is...
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by Timm Higgins on Jan 20, 2012 4:09 PM GMT up reply actions
Nobody is talking about a league full of B-teams
The ‘B-team’ would be playing ‘real’ games against the first teams of other clubs. For example, if the Chelsea B team was in the Championship, it would be playing against the first teams of clubs such as West Ham and Sunderland.
Please somebody explain
So if A -team needs to recall some B team player ASAP, what would B team to do, where would they get the cover they need (from C-league?)
How B-league competion could remain to be meaningful at all with this system if they are completely at mercy of A-teams?
The B team would have a squad of ~20 players
If, for example, we needed to call up a CB to the first team ASAP, there should be another CB on the B team’s bench who could cover.
Imagine you have your favourite pair of shoes [lame example]
but your brother is more important than you (just imagine) and one day he just takes those shoes from you. Yes, you have another pair, but are you going to be very happy?
The entire purpose of the B team is to serve the first team
The B team WILL be ‘happy’ when a player gets called up to the first team. That is solely what it exists for. So it’s less like a brother and more like a garden. You grow tomatoes so that you can eat them (or sell them) and so that you don’t have to buy them.
I like that
Good example and this type of a system clearly makes sense. The players who get called up will be happy and the players who are now getting match time in their absence are happy. Win-win?
by Blue for life on Jan 20, 2012 4:03 PM GMT up reply actions
The B team is essentially the reserve team (with the loan players) playing against better competition
Every member of the B team is fighting towards being brought up to the big team. If Bertrand, for example, is brought up that provides more opportunity for somebody else. The B team is still about development, they are playing in the lower divisions to provide better competition. They are still a part of Chelsea (or whatever respective team they are part of). They train at the same grounds, share some of the coaching and training staff, share all the facilities. It’s not taking away from the B team to promote players, it’s making the academy more successful.
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 20, 2012 2:07 AM GMT up reply actions
I like this....
…..plus you sort of have to make sure the B team is competitive enough to stay up in the Championship.
Ok, I just read comments just above, so it's not a B-league
but rather it’s B-teams, but the same questions remain.
Think of The Championship, but take away two teams and add e.g. Chelsea B and Man Utd B
Only the best B teams would be able to compete in The Championship alongside the likes of West Ham and Nottingham Forest. The other B teams would play in lower leagues, depending on how good they are against the competition, e.g. Liverpool B would play in League One, and Bolton B would play in League Two. And they can all get promoted and relegated (except to the league where the first team plays) depending on how well they play against the other teams, just like any other ‘real’ team.
The only other way to explain is with baseball..
….Minor League team. You call guy up, there’s already a guy on the bench. I’m just not sure what’s still to question…
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by Timm Higgins on Jan 20, 2012 2:15 AM GMT up reply actions
I guess that depends on what exactly you mean by that
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 20, 2012 2:26 AM GMT up reply actions
Is the gap between top and bottom bigger/smaller than it is in England? Do smaller teams
rise up as often as they do here (like Swansea did for example)?
I don't think there's any sort of correlation with other teams at Swansea's level
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 20, 2012 4:24 AM GMT up reply actions
Would Swansea have a B-team as they are in the PL?
And then lose it if they get relegated?
Swansea could have a B team, and it could play anywhere that isn't the PL
Assuming the B team plays in the Championship, if Swansea get relegated from the PL, their B team can still exist, but it can’t play in the Championship now, so it would be automatically relegated to League One.
Questions
The many questions I have are… How would the B’s displace the teams in championship/league 1? You can’t simply place the B team and relegate the championship sides, so how would this happen? The only fair way it could happen in my opinion, is put the teams in the Blue Square league, and have them get promoted until they reach the championship… Or could they start a league at the between conference national and Npower 2, with all of the premier league B’s to either get promoted or relegated? Also, do teams in the second division of spain have B teams? where does it end? Could Gillingham or Torquay have B teams?
From Stamford Bridge to Wembley, KTBFFH
Any club that could afford it could have a B team
Celta Vigo and Hercules are second division teams that also run B teams in the 3rd division. Alaves in the third division has a B team in the 4th division.
As to putting the B teams in – I’d think it would depend on how good the FA considers each one to be and where it merits a place. I may be wrong, but with EPPP I think only 3 academies, one of which is Chelsea’s, will be of the highest rank. Those 3 could probably easily replace teams relegated from the Championship at the end of a season, at the expense of League One sides who would normally have been promoted. Or maybe a two-legged playoff with the League One winners to see who gets promoted, in order to be fair. I’m just throwing ideas around here…
I think if they’re going to chuck the B teams in the Blue Square/Conference National, they’d need to do it gradually, as in put 3 or 4 in one season, let them get promoted/relegated/stay, and then put in a 3 or 4 more the next season. Putting them all in at the same time or creating a new tier in the system just for the B teams will essentially make it just like the reserve league, which will not be good.
This is where a lot of the problems (regarding accommodation of B teams) with the English football pyramid come to light, as opposed to Spain’s. England only has 24 third division and 24 fourth division clubs, but in Spain the 3rd division has 4 groups of 20, so 80 clubs (~15 of which are B teams). The 4th division has 18 groups of 20, so 360 clubs (~15 B, ~5 C teams). The FA simply wouldn’t make such a radical change to the English system.
As far as accommodating the B teams
I think re-alignment of the pyramid is a much more likely way of doing it than messing with promotion/relegation for multiple seasons. There are plenty of parallel divisions in the lower levels of the pyramid (starting with Conference North & South at Level 6) – it would not be all that crazy to see that propagated up a little higher.
Leave the Prem (20 teams) & the Championship (24) alone and then start adding in the B teams. Div.1 North/South, Div.2 North/South, etc. (So it would fatten out the English Pyramid a bit, although not nearly as drastically as the Spanish one.) More games, more teams, more TV money, too.
Not that it’ll ever happen, mind you, but it would be very cool.
Shanghai Shenghua (or something) are feeling confident of signing Drogba.
http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11668/7441550/Chinese-confident-over-Drogba
I normally wouldn’t pay this too much heed, but it is on SkySports. Combine that with the fact that we dont want Droggles to leave on a free and……
:(
We jump to conclusions?
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by Kevin Kostka on Jan 20, 2012 4:18 AM GMT up reply actions
Seriously, though...
…I’d take a move to Shanghai for him. It works for everyone. Torres doesn’t have the competition Carlo seems to think is hurting him, Danny gets to move into the centre, as he’s said to want, it gives us definite reason to go after a winger, we’d be better off getting something for Drogba than letting him go for nothing in the summer, he’ll get way more in salary in China than in Europe, and it would mean he isn’t going to a competitor.
Overall, though, this sounds like a Football Manager kind of deal, rather than something realistic. I’ll believe it when it happens.
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by Kevin Kostka on Jan 20, 2012 4:28 AM GMT up reply actions
I'd like to think
of gettuing a fee for DD ratrher than him walking but what we lose in fees from Shanghai we gain in having a striker with DD’s experience, and without Nico wwe will need him even if I think he’s still well short of being even half the player he was even with Malaria! He looked a bit quicker and sharper for TIC the other day and as he’s only, for my mind, played one decent match this season(at home to Valencia when he was our only focal point)it’s a bit dodgy ground to be advocating keeping the guy til /June but who else we going to get wityh his CL exp and quality that isn’t tied now anyhow?
Exactly, and the point is , with dids, getting rid of his massive wages and June’s as good as Summer if we haven’t got another big one coming in right about now and, sadly, I think we’d have pulled a signing out of the bag early on and be dusted a bit ago if there was anyone else coming in January. Hurst me as I don’t see the depth there or any creative force now Josh has gone, beyond Mata and should he get hurt? We’d need Didier for the longer game we’d have to play shorne of our only pair of creative passers at the club-and one through choice.
So, no, if we don’t sign both another forward who can play CF AND another who can play wide better or another schemer in the CM area then DD is a must to be kepty on even if Carlo does think Torres is scared of him. Hell, I think we might playa diamond again at some point with Danny partnering one or the other yet-or even see them holding handies on the pitch themselves!! But he won’ty go without more coming in and we’re light already considering the likelihood of the over tired Cole breaking down very soon(silly that AVB won’t let Ryan give Ashley a single game’s rest when he’s good enough), Essien breaking down again, JT likely to be witch hunted to death and banned for EVER and the fact that any injuries at the back will mean Bos and Paulo again and we had their single god performance defensively at WHL and don’t want to push it!
Unless AVB has a change of heart( a big one) and decides Chalobah and Hutch are ready and ready now to back up the back four I can’t see how a few injuries won’t really hurt us given the lack of faith in even our best known and most experienced youth players. In this case Drogs and Sally are certs to stay til June and Lord knows what will come of poor Alex. I get that his contract is longer than Cahill’s was and we, rightly, want some money for a quality CB but unless it’s his demands pricing him out of the market in wage terms I think we should try harder to get the guy what he wants as a good servant of our club-maybe, if it wasn’t pesky QPR Chelsea would be more fair over his fee! Gone on again, sorry, but it’s the Nightnurse.
by mastiffchild on Jan 21, 2012 12:44 AM GMT up reply actions
I think AVB
had very similar comments early in the season. He’s probably feeling them rise up again, given the loans he has had to make and the positions they’d needed some backup for recently.
The B team idea doesn't sit well with me, but I'm not 100% sure why
The FA have no pressing reason to change their current format at this stage. Over the course of a season, the EPL has the 4th highest total attendance figures of any outdoor sports league in the world (behind MLB, NPB and NFL) and the Championship comes in 7th (ahead of Serie A).
Even League 1 has more people in attendance than the Segunda Division.
These figures move around somewhat if you take average attendances, but the point remains; the Championship and League 1 are pretty damn popular in their current format, and still make the FA quite a bit of money. Introducing a string of B-teams that can’t be promoted past the Championship would remove a lot of the drama that makes it an interesting contest in the first place.
I’m not normally one for sentimentality or for letting emotions stop a good idea, but as somebody that values the level of competition in English club football and doesn’t give a fuck about the English national team, I don’t see how introducing B-teams into the regular league would make things any better.
What if the de facto B teams were just already existing teams?
Just throwing a thought out there…
Like, say, Brentford (“B”) and/or Cobham FC (“C”) would essentially become our feeder teams with free movement of players between the clubs – a system similar to baseball and hockey in the States. You could place some geographic restrictions on this with an automatic cancellation of the links should the two teams end up the same division.
The classic pyramid would remain intact and the lower league clubs could benefit from the added talent?
That would be fine as long as the fans of those teams didn't realise what was happening
Nobody wants to go and watch a team knowing that their best players can get taken whenever some other team wants. There’s also the issue that Stephen mentioned before, that if the other clubs still existed in their own right then UEFA rules would still prevent transfers between clubs outside of transfer windows.
If would also make contracts a complicated affair. Players would be contracted to three distinct organisations? That’s messy.
Best players in lower league clubs already get "taken" whenever some big club wants already
So the fans are experiencing that stuff already. At least this way they’re guaranteed some top/young/promising talent in return and in addition.
The contracts would get messy, sure.
And if the two teams did end up in the same division (i.e.: Brentford promoted to the Prem, in the example), the link break/divorce process would be a convoluted affair.
The problem there is that Brentford wouldn't be allowed to be in the same division as Chelsea.
Their fans could never even dream of their team in the PL.
Imagine
our B team.
Courtios
Hutchinson Bruma Kalas Bertrand
Clifford Chalobah McEachran
Lalkovic Lukaku Kakuta
Subs: Blackman, Van Aanholt, Piazon, Djalo, Ake, Feruz, Mellis.
All of these players are good enough to make it to a BPL first team just Chelsea will struggle to give them a chance. Bring in a B – team system please!
I'd try Kalas at right back and hutch in the middle.
But the FA would have to choose their priority. Making the England National team more competitive or keeping the tradition of very popular lower leagues. Remember our lower leagues keep a lot of young men in well paid jobs. A lad i went to school with is studying at university on a part time basis and earning £600 a week playing for a non-league team. That could be damaged by bringing in b-teams that start to dominate the lower league teams.
If we made a new club now
and called it Chelsea B we could get promoted very quickly (almost year after year) and it would be a better competition than the reserve and youth leagues. The problem is that real teams wouldn’t be getting promoted because a team of international whiz kids is storming up the ranks.
It’s not fair on the Crawley FC fans or the Aldershot fans of the country. But most of the players for the B teams would be English and they’d be getting more competitive action at a younger age. Would only do good things for the national team. So is it worth damaging the lower leagues and upsetting their fans to make England’s top teams better and possibly the national team? I don’t know.
The answer to your question at the end is no...
The aim of the FA should be to make the leagues more competitive, so that every team has something to aim for. I, for one, am a massive fan of the way that the EPL has become so much more competitive in recent years, where any team can beat any other on a given day.
It makes for a much more interesting fan spectacle than having 2 or 3 teams that are far better than every other team in the league.
My view is that the FA should take the course of action that leads to the best possible situation for the majority of fans – which is to pretty much leave things alone.
Well that could work...
Although the Spanish 2nd division is probably not much better than the reserve league we have now, so maybe it’s not necessary.
No
We could, theorhetically, have a B team in ANY of the leagues on the continent -in the TOP division as we aren’t there to play them!! Our B team playing AC or Real or PSG or Bayern? Bring it on! Let’s start a franh=chise in EVERY country and rule the World! All e’d need is to deny those sides any Uefa football and done, done , done! Possibly some continental small clubs would actually LIKE to BE that club too-in Sapin with Real and Barca’s immoral, league killing TV deals it’s no competition anyway so why not?
by mastiffchild on Jan 21, 2012 12:48 AM GMT up reply actions
What's to stop Chelsea just making and registering a new team called Chelsea B?
We’d then enter it at the appropriate ‘new club’ level somewhere in the Conference and watch it as it was promoted over the years until it reached the level it was competative at?
Would the FA block it because of the fact the club had special call up links with CFC?
If it was allowed this would literally the only way to do it. The idea of parachuting B teams into the Championship is ridiculous as it would take out the promotion of teams from League 1 for a season (or more), thus making that whole season of competition in League 1 totally defunct.
Barca’s B team has been around for a long time and I’m sure it’s earned it’s place in the Spanish second division on merit…
It wouldn't have special call up links with CFC
And it wouldn’t be able to be owned by Roman because it could be considered a conflict of interest.
Basically it would be really difficult for such a thing to exist.
To be honest
I don’t think FA will change the system to incorporate ‘B’ teams…
What we can do is strike a partnership with a Championship side…a mid-table one which is on the rise and has chances of getting promoted withing the next 3-4 seasons…
Something we have with Vitesse or Ado Den Haag..
We can send our young players on loan there and ensure they get first team action quite regularly…
If the team comes up to PL, it’s better for us…the player we send on loan will play at a more competitive level…
by msreya on Jan 20, 2012 1:43 PM GMT via mobile reply actions
There isn't currently a limit on how many players we can loan out
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 20, 2012 2:08 PM GMT up reply actions
But isn;t there a limit on how many players a club can loan from other clubs?
Can’t we only loan 3 players to one team? have I made that up?
Different countries have different rules in that regard
Premier League clubs can have an entire roster of loaned players, but only two of those can be players from other Premier League clubs. There is no maximum to the number of players you can send out on loan though, it’s basically as many as you’re comfortable with.
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 20, 2012 2:35 PM GMT up reply actions
Oh right.
Can we loan out like 10 players to say Doncaster then with no trouble at all? Would that be worth doing?
No
The simple folk of Donny would see ten Londoners as an agressive invasion by stylish alien types and cull the players on arrival, scared of “that” London and it’s scary liberalism where women are allowed out of the house, kitchen and, I’ve heard, wear men’s trouser style clothing? I din’t think they understand football either because Lalkovic went there, didn’t get a chance then, when he did, was amazing and immediately ignored again-and this by a supposed passig, footballing side. Lalkovic=GOOD and they, over two managers failed to see it even when he performed well in their faces so no chance a full B team there.
I think they might have heard about ourt laqdy doc at the main team and thats soured them toward our kids-if they believe women CAN be doctors that is. Before anyone moans and sticks up for the North of England=don’t! Yeah, I’m not being serious and I live in the Lakes these days(wish I didn’t but I do)aand, obviously, the attitudes of most people up norf are way more backwards and offensive than I portray them. They make Somerset seem like some futuristic utopian dream, a crazy, beautiful social exeriment oin equality and higher thinking processes. Honestly. And the “friendly northerners” who “speak to anyone”? Sure, they speak. They ask the time and do so only to make sure you aren’t from their little part of hell before mugging you and your nan. The Tube is WAY more matey than the North.
by mastiffchild on Jan 21, 2012 12:57 AM GMT up reply actions
Ouch. So how do you REALLY feel about them?
hehehe
by DPeezy on Jan 21, 2012 12:59 AM GMT up reply actions 1 recs
Guardian trolling AVB
www.guardian.co.uk/ms/p/gnm/op/s1jrinTV3RLWCN7UW24NA7A/view.m?id=15&gid=football/football-league-blog/2012/jan/20/championship-teams-villas-boas-football-league&cat=football
Very shitty work by the writers on the B-Team proposal by AVB
And also how they go round to the Torres signing whilst talking about the B-teams,it really disturbs me
by RamStamford on Jan 20, 2012 3:49 PM GMT via mobile reply actions
Is this the article you meant
If that was it – oh my my. It’s one thing to disagree, I’m fine with anyone from the guardian disagreeing. But this “article” is beyond help. That’s not even good sarcasm – that’s just plain insulting and disgusting, especially the last line regarding Torres. Not even serious fan blogs write those things. Meh
Tor ilisar'thera'nal!
Yeah he came off as a dick...
…it was a suggestion and yet the author gets all bent out of shape like AVB is trying to make this happen in the here and now. It reminds me a lot of the old guard in baseball, any suggestion to try and make things better with the modern game are shot down almost immediately without any thought into what they’re actually saying.
Follow me on twitter@PrixFixeOnline
Staff writer for Managing Madrid & Sounder At Heart
by Timm Higgins on Jan 20, 2012 4:29 PM GMT up reply actions
I am more shocked that..
people seem to think that not only is he proposing this change happen immediately (he said the same thing early on in the season and no one gave a hoot, then, and he isnt the first manager to suggest this)… but that they seem certain that having B squads in the Championship will ruin their teams. Some confidence they have. Here AVB is saying that they would be good competition, and they’re pretty much claiming they’ll get destroyed by Chelsea B. Methinks that fans in the Championship have an inferiority complex that they’ve almost embraced, ever since the institution of the Premier and Championship levels.
Now they’re all “eff the big clubs, dont let them come in and ruin my small club”. Competition is competition, no? I gather there is a such thing as tradition, but there are some traditions that kind of suck and I guess I just dont understand what the big deal is. I must be missing something.. maybe I need to be a Championship-side fan in England to gather what is so monumentally terrible about another few teams in the competition (other than that it means more competition).
I love that the author (who doesn't put his name on it) seems to think Barca is the only club doing this
It’s everywhere but England, I son’t know how this writer doesn’t see the correlation between the failures of the national team and the failures of the players development system.
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 20, 2012 5:05 PM GMT up reply actions
I think it's because he's hell bent on going after AVB..
….so you know blinders and all that.
Follow me on twitter@PrixFixeOnline
Staff writer for Managing Madrid & Sounder At Heart
by Timm Higgins on Jan 20, 2012 10:26 PM GMT up reply actions
Especially as AVB has said it
Thats the asses’ main problem
How can a Chelsea manager say something good? Impossible(UNPOSSIBLE!)
Had that idea come off Ferguson,Wenger,Dalglish or any of the.media favorite it would be considered as an advice to help the country’s game develop,and appreciated but as Avb said it,its crap
Thats the reputation hes earned for the ref rant after Qpr and backing DL
Biased media
Sometimes it makes me feel outrageous
by RamStamford on Jan 20, 2012 4:54 PM GMT via mobile up reply actions
Let's be fair
The Guardian article about it that was actually posted by the Guardian staff really just restated AVB’s beliefs. This is some toolbag with a blog about the Football League (not a good looking site, mind you, and doesnt appear to be on a large network, like say WAGNH) and he’s used The Guardian as his personal soapbox for the day. Hardly “the media” if you ask me.. and more just an opinion piece from someone who takes things a little over-seriously.
Now, his comment about the NFL franchise stuff bothered me more than the Torres slight. It doesn’t even make sense in his argument to me… he was just having a go at another sport that happens to share the same name… probably because us Americans are trying to destroy English traditions and REAL football with our bastardized version of a sport ;)
I think it was a sly dig
But you should really change the name. It’s not football it’s handegg XD
In all seriousness there are a huge amount of fans and money in the lower leagues. Teams like Oldham can afford to pay their top earners £8,000 a week which is actually mad.
I think it could be seen as insulting to fans of smaller teams if some of the teams they were playing against were only there to get promoted to the first team. But ask any young player in the country with a small amount of potential if they’d rather play for York City when they’re 25 or any Premier League side. I don’t think it would be too bad if we did it but I can’t see us doing it in the near future.
Guardian had approved the article and posted it on the papa site
Supporting a crime gets you more punishment than actually doing it,miss. :)
by RamStamford on Jan 20, 2012 6:26 PM GMT via mobile up reply actions
Have to agree with that
the article was up on the front sport page of the guardian section and is sorted in like a “regular” piece. If they thought themselves this was not the usual standard how they publish things (I’m not exactly a fan of guardian’s opinions but it’s still opinion but this just goes too far imho – it’s way below all standards) then they could have marked this properly … or not publish it online at all.
Tor ilisar'thera'nal!
This!!!!
Thanks for helping me out miss,I actually blabber a lot.
by RamStamford on Jan 20, 2012 7:50 PM GMT via mobile up reply actions
Strange
It wasnt when I checked (roughly around the same time as you). Maybe they’re doing some A/B testing or targeting based on location? The only article I could find along those lines was the article by the actual Guardian. I had to wait for your link to it in order to read it.
I guess what I was trying to say is that The Guardian posted it in an opinion section where guest writers do their thing, and they get all kinds of opinions. I don’t think they are spectacular, but heck, they probably got a good chuckle out of this man’s madness too. Maybe they wanted to see the response it would get (hell, if I worked there I would post it just so the writer could earn his abuse). I like how he keeps responding to try to defend himself in the comments.
When RamSTamford posted this initially
it was the wrong link. I went to the guardian page to check, and found it on the front page. Reading this it seems RamStamford found it on the front page as well. Maybe shortly afterwards it was withdrawn, but if you click on their Chelsea section – just click on Chelsea on the table on the left bar of their football page – it reappears, and is filed regularly together with all other articles.
Tor ilisar'thera'nal!
I found it at the Chelsea section
by RamStamford on Jan 21, 2012 11:07 AM GMT via mobile up reply actions
At least the media dont go all guns blazing on him
He gets blamed because of his transfer dealings (non dealings actually) and because of Arsenal’s underperformance.
Avb gets stick for every goddamned thing !
He’s called a dancing manager (no denial,but still),tactically unsound et al
And now he’s blamed for suggesting something good,and the Nando fiasco he isn’t a part of.
by RamStamford on Jan 20, 2012 6:31 PM GMT via mobile up reply actions
How did the media react on Wenger's
suggestion to award points for goal scored in the league table? Just curious for comparison’s sake
Tor ilisar'thera'nal!
He's Scottish
If it’s not Scottish it’s crap
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 20, 2012 6:53 PM GMT up reply actions 1 recs
Oh ... then I begin to realize
why Pat Nevin joked about “Why not a Scottish manager at Chelsea?” before we signed AVB
Tor ilisar'thera'nal!
I'm happy with AVB...
….but we could do worse than Paul Lambert, for instance.
Dalgish is really not good
Apart from the time when he started and Livepool somehow improved but apart from that he has never been that good,his signings are bad(except Suarez an Enrique).
Suarez wont be there for long
I think it was a bit harsh of Enrique to leave Newcastle to Liverpool seeing as how they’re virtually the same level of team. I know Liverpool spend more but Newcastle spend better. In fact most of Newcastle’s transfers have looked pretty good. They have quite a strong team now.
I think the only really outstanding players they have are Lucas, Reina and Suarez. The rest aren’t that good. Reina will probably stay because he’s been there for a while. But Suarez came from Ajax who were the winners of the league last year and can play in the CL. Technically Liverpool is a step down. Maybe not much of a worse team than Ajax but definitely missing out on the CL must hurt. So if one of the teams competing in the CL (City, Barcelona, Real, us and maybe even Milan) came knocking in a year or two he’d probably think of leaving.
Basically Dalglish has shown he isn’t the best in the transfer market. Suarez was almost definitely decided before he was given the job. If they carry on this downward trajectory, or even stay the same their best player will leave. I mean right now the top 4 looks like the top 4 at the end of the season. Unless Spurs lose a lot of players they will only get stronger with the added CL money. We’re obviously going to get better. City will continue to get stronger and united are going to be in the top 4 for a while longer.
Even if one of the current top 4 drops down they still have to compete with Arsenal and Newcastle at the moment. But with O’neil at Sunderland they could very easily start challenging. Especially seeing as they have a bit of money.
Basically I can’t see them satisfying Suarez anytime over the next 5 years. Would be a shame if they robbed him of CL football or a stab at a league title.
I love the "go spend 50m on someone who can hit a barn door" (paraphrased).
It’s THAT much funnier because it wasn’t actually AVB who spent said 50m.
He's revising history to suit his needs...
Follow me on twitter@PrixFixeOnline
Staff writer for Managing Madrid & Sounder At Heart
by Timm Higgins on Jan 20, 2012 10:30 PM GMT up reply actions
Another article..
looks like McEachran does get some guidance from Lampard: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/16656702.stm
But is it helpful, or is he just encouraging the competition to leave ;) Dun dun dunnnnn! JK! I am surprised the press didnt take it there.
So next we won't read
“You need to sell Lampard to get the best out of Josh. Lampard swallows his competitors.”
No? menooooooo
Tor ilisar'thera'nal!
drawing an example from baseball
what if clubs were able to set up temporary affiliations with lower division clubs, and the affiliations would be up for negotiations every summer, so you could continue the relationship or start an affiliation with another club. that’s kind of how major/minor league baseball works. the minor league teams are independently owned, but they just “affiliate” with major league teams. what’s the conflict preventing that? (sorry if i’ve explained that poorly)
Ironically enough most major league teams have been realizing that this is an incredibly inefficient way to operate
They’ve been trending towards purchasing as many of their minor league teams as they can in recent years with most clubs actually owning the majority of their minor league teams in the lower levels.
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 20, 2012 5:25 PM GMT up reply actions
Knee-jerk media
I love all the nonsense reactions that are taking it as some personal attack by AVB on English football.
Here’s a story that I’d like to see gain more traction: Moyes (Scottish darling) actually TRIED a similar idea with an Everton ‘B’ team, but the concept floundered in all the red tape.
Offtopic
Guys plz check my fanpost (sounds desperate ???) and do participate in the poll…I would love to get responses from all you guys :)
http://www.weaintgotnohistory.com/2012/1/20/2721505/the-one-that-best-suits-us
Cheers
Cheers,
Rohi D
My Comments
These are my comments on soccernet.com (I don’t recommend getting involved in comments over there since 90% of commenters are stupid).
In response to belief that this will only help the Big Four (random question: who the fuck is the “big four” now? Chelsea, Man U, Arsenal, Man City, L’Pool, Tottenham?)
Me: Why do you think only the wealthy would benefit? Does Wigan or Wolves or Southampton or Charlton or Leeds not develop any youth products? This would reward teams that develop talent even more and punish teams like Chelsea (and I’m a Chelsea fan), City, and Man U who buy their entire roster. Teams that find and develop good youth talent could get more youth products more playing time in their system with a B team. Right now only a handful of elite prospects are loaned from wealthy clubs. Who does Wigan or Wolves have on loan now? Chelsea, Arsenal, City, and Man U have what a dozen prospects loaned out each? Clearly this current system benefits the wealthy who can afford to buy a player ready to start from day 1 while they loan out their youth products to other EPL/Championship teams that have no money left for transfers and are desperate for talent. It’s no surprise that Wigan, Bolton, Swansea, Norwich and the other teams with no money take on prospects, they need the bodies. By accepting a loan they continue to give the elite free training and playing time ensuring that the elite prospects develop into elite players on the wealthy teams.
In terms of team strategy and mentality, loaning a prospect to two or three different clubs, with two or three different managers, and two or three different strategies and two or three different styles is completely stupid. Its no surprise that England develops so few youth stars. They need stability and patience and instead they are thrust into different cities (for the first time) and are constantly getting different instructions and exercises every 6 months to a year. It’s crazy. Imagine if every year of high school you went to a different school and not just a different school in a new location but also in a new country with a new language. You’d go crazy.
I’m all in for a move like this. The one issue I have is where should these teams start (I say League Two) and I don’t think they should replace any team in the football league they should just be an extra team. For example, if Man U, Chelsea, Arsenal and Man City all have good B teams in 3 years they and 24 other Championship Teams (current number) would make up the Championship. B teams cannot play in the FA or League Cup but they can play in the Football League Trophy even if they are in the Championship.
This is completely random but why doesn’t the FA make the Carling Cup a Great Britain competition so it’d be a competition between four football associations. I think Rangers/Celtic playing against EPL teams would be sweet.
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